Saturday 20 - transhumanist meetings in Second Life
Very important day in the history of transhumanism in the Metaverse, with two interesting parallel meetings in Second Life.
On uvvy island there was a meeting to revive the WTA activities in Second Life: new focus on location and type of activities. About 20 people attended. Some new managers and “animators” have been recruited with the task of organizing frequent meetings, talks, seminars and social events. Note that this is not a closed club, anyone can join. Look for the “World Transhumanist Association” group in Second Life and join. The website of the WTA Chapter in Second Life will be updated with news and announcements of new events. We really miss Charles (OneUp) and Manoj, I hope they will be back.
In the image above, taken before the meeting, I am in the uvvy pub “Fish and Prims” with Transhumanist Queen Natasha, who has been introduced to the pleasures of voice chat in Second Life, and Khannea who will take an important role as manager and animator of transhumanist activities in Second Life. Natasha told me that MAX may consider joining SL! Max, I really look forward to seeing you in SL, and there will be plenty of volunteers to help you mastering the most arcane parts of the SL interface. I think Second Life is an ideal workspace for the global transhumanist community.
After the meeting on uvvy island everyone moved to the other meeting organized by Sophrosyne Stenvaag in the Diversionarium: Beyond Bionics: Transhumanism and Virtual Worlds - a *spirited* discussion of what’s next for humans and technology.
I had some arguments with Sophrosyne’s crowd in the past, mainly about “immersionism” vs. “augmentationism” and voice in SL, that for me is just another useful tool and for most of them is a unwelcome intrusion of RL in SL that destroys the dream of living in VR world as a Digital Person. As most reasonable persons do, we just agree to disagree on this point. I must say that besides arguments on specifics I am very sympathetic with the aspirations of Digital Persons. I think in 2007 Second Life is waaaaay to primitive to be taken seriously as a parallel reality, but technology, as it usually does, will improve fast. As soon as that happens people will upload parts of their personalities to VR worlds and live there as conscious Digital Persons, like transhumanist DP Extropia Dasilva (close to the center in the picture below).
Digital Persons, uploading and the nature of consciousness were among the many topics discussed. Very interesting, I look forward to attending other similar events. The discussion was based on text-chat - it is very difficult to use voice in a crowded SL environment where everyone talks at the same time (voice is perfect for small groups), and some DP prefer not using voice anyway. This kind of meeting is a vary fast brainstorming and one has to go back to the chat history to read things again. My network link crashed halfway, but see the extended text (More… below) for partial transcripts of both meetings.
[12:53] Jeff13 Flow shouts: i just got on friut
[12:53] Venreer Vollmar shouts: i like fruits
[12:53] Venreer Vollmar shouts: they r deliciosu
[12:53] Jeff13 Flow shouts: lmao
[12:54] You: hi everyone
[12:54] You: where do we meet?
[12:54] You shout: hi everyone
[12:54] You shout: where do we meet?
[12:54] You shout: suggest the pub
[12:54] Jeff13 Flow shouts: not over here
[12:54] Terence McKenna shouts: Here.
[12:55] You shout: where eugen?
[12:55] Davidorban Agnon shouts: full coordinates, please?
[12:55] Terence McKenna shouts: Where the greatest number of blips on the screen is.
[12:55] You shout: largest building
[12:56] Dancoyote Antonelli: evolution*
[12:56] Khannea Suntzu mumbles something about popcorn
[12:56] Alonzo Karas: But there is no way to become transhuman in a sith state. =P
[12:56] You: hi everyone
[12:56] Khannea Suntzu: Hoi boss
[12:56] MarieMarie Timeless: hi Giulio
[12:56] Dancoyote Antonelli: there is no way to become transhuman yet anyway
[12:56] Dancoyote Antonelli: it is a state of mind, or readiness
[12:56] Terence McKenna: I tried to create a slurl for the event, but I didn’t knew how.
[12:56] Dancoyote Antonelli: it is a willinglness to augment yourself
[12:57] Dancoyote Antonelli: ah
[12:57] Dancoyote Antonelli: I can help Terence
[12:57] Dancoyote Antonelli: sec
[12:57] Xantha Oe is Online
[12:58] Terence McKenna: Someone has to lead the meeting. I just brought a bunch of avatars together.
[12:58] Khannea Suntzu: Boss the ehh “other meeting” appears to be a tad crowded as well
[12:59] You: ok lets see who is here
[12:59] You: I will heve to leave in 10-15 min for other meeting
[12:59] You: too bad 2 were scheduled at same time
[12:59] You: do we discuss wta-sl?
[12:59] Khannea Suntzu: You will attend the other one?
[13:00] Terence McKenna: Anyone can circulate http://slurl.com/secondlife/uvvy/218/52/22/ widely? That’s this place here.
[13:00] Alonzo Karas: At pandoraa’s place?
[13:00] Alonzo Karas: I couldn’t find anyone there.
[13:00] Terence McKenna: Yes, this is the WTA-SL meeting.
[13:00] Khannea Suntzu: Ok
[13:00] Khannea Suntzu: Cool
[13:00] You: OK
[13:00] You: is charles (oneup) here?
[13:00] IntLibber Brautigan: ah
[13:00] Terence McKenna: Hey Mike.
[13:01] You: hi mike
[13:01] Alanna DuPont is Offline
[13:01] You: melanie you loog gorgeus
[13:01] IntLibber Brautigan: heya Giulio
[13:01] You: ok
[13:01] xyryx Simca: he’s not online
[13:01] You: is manoj here?
[13:01] Davidorban Agnon is Offline
[13:01] PetGirl Bergman is Offline
[13:01] xyryx Simca: also not online
[13:01] Terence McKenna: Both OneUp Thibault and VR Manoj have quit, I thought.
[13:01] You: none of the old board members are here
[13:01] You: so we need new management
[13:02] Terence McKenna: Yes, the group has died, and needs to be resurrected.
[13:02] You: does anyone want to run?
[13:02] WhiteBoard (w): Now showing Image 11/50 - Slide12
[13:02] Khannea Suntzu: Who here is from nl?
[13:02] Terence McKenna: I can only be of minor assistance, since I’m an SL n00b.
[13:02] Morpheus Maximus: I am
[13:02] xyryx Simca USA
[13:02] You: citizen of world
[13:02] Terence McKenna: Organisation, yes, somewhat.
[13:03] Benru Pera is Offline
[13:03] You: so does anyone wish to be on board?
[13:03] You: ah - yes there is one from previous board
[13:03] Terence McKenna: What are the duties of a board member?
[13:03] You: khannea
[13:03] Dancoyote Antonelli: yes
[13:03] Morpheus Maximus: I missed the first part, but I’d like to help
[13:03] Dancoyote Antonelli: what are the duties
[13:03] Benru Pera is Online
[13:03] You: sweetie you are at serious risk of having to riun wta-sl
[13:04] You: duties: outreach, organizing t¡interesting transhumanist events
[13:04] You: can I make proposal
[13:04] You: acclaim Khannea as Fearless Leader of wta-sl
[13:04] You: who is for?
[13:05] Dancoyote Antonelli: seconded
[13:05] Terence McKenna: I’m for it. Volunteer to assist her.
[13:05] xyryx Simca: Thirded
[13:05] You: K you here?
[13:05] Khannea Suntzu: Hmz
[13:05] IntLibber Brautigan: aye
[13:05] You: ao you accept the habemus papa?
[13:06] You: y she is herte but silent
[13:06] IntLibber Brautigan: um I guess I came in late here
[13:06] IntLibber Brautigan: whats going on?
[13:06] Khannea Suntzu: You know I can’t handle the practical side of that business.
[13:06] Cryonica Artizar is Online
[13:06] You: learn by doing
[13:06] Khannea Suntzu: I am too erratic, neckdeep in ADD
[13:06] IntLibber Brautigan: if you have OCD too your all set
[13:06] You: or in other wordsTRANSCEND LIMITATIONS
[13:06] Khannea Suntzu: If my sacrifices are needed I’ll accept but I will not be easy.
[13:07] You: mike: OCD?
[13:07] xyryx Simca: aww, khan, you only need the part above the neck anyway!
[13:07] Terence McKenna: Khannea, I will help you in any way I can.
[13:07] IntLibber Brautigan: oh yes, I’ve found obsessive compulsive disorder is great quality for my managers to have
[13:07] Khannea Suntzu looks dountful
[13:07] IntLibber Brautigan: tho not excessively so
[13:07] You: so new board is: khannea + eugen - other volunteers?
[13:08] You: david are you member of wta?
[13:08] You: mike? melanie?
[13:08] Morpheus Maximus: I like to volunteer too
[13:08] Khannea Suntzu: Hmmm lets make this a dutch disease :))
[13:08] IntLibber Brautigan: ghu, wish I could help, but I’m just opening our new stock exchange tomorrow so I’m going to be even more busy than ever
[13:08] You: + morpheus - btw who are you - do we know u with other n ame?
[13:08] You: dont answer if you dont want ofcourse
[13:09] Morpheus Maximus: I co-organised the first Transvision conference, I’m a dutch cryonicist and transhumanist and physicist
[13:09] You: wooow
[13:09] Morpheus Maximus: and WTA member
[13:09] You: so we sure know your other name!
[13:09] Morpheus Maximus: [deleted] is mu RL name
[13:09] Morpheus Maximus: *my
[13:09] You: where is jani miryam?
[13:10] Terence McKenna: She is attending some art thing. Probably won’t make it.
[13:10] You: lets co-opt her - she wanted to be on board
[13:10] Terence McKenna: A perfect victim.
[13:10] You: OK Board is set
[13:10] You: Khannea, Eugen, Morpheus, Jani
[13:11] You: as (still) WTA Board member I salute and welcome you!
[13:11] Peer Infinity: hi everyone. I’m on dial-up at the moment and it’s taking a while for everything to rez
[13:11] You: HABEMUS PAPA!!!!!! (s)
[13:11] IntLibber Brautigan: hence the name fits
[13:11] Khannea Suntzu: Giulio question IM
[13:12] You: K - ???
[13:12] Terence McKenna: Habemus papam?
[13:12] Dixit Writer: Hello everybody
[13:12] You: the pope has been elected
[13:12] MarieMarie Timeless: hello Dixit
[13:12] You: white smoke and all that
[13:12] Khannea Suntzu nods
[13:12] Khannea Suntzu: Ok
[13:12] Dancoyote Antonelli: flashon
[13:12] Terence McKenna: Yes, but I thought it was habemus papam, not papa.
[13:13] Dancoyote Antonelli: off
[13:13] You: yes papam
[13:13] IntLibber Brautigan: doesnt a pope requier a supermajority vote?
[13:13] FogMachine: Rez’d - Click me for control menu
[13:13] You: yes - this is unanimity
[13:13] FogMachine: I can currently be controlled by anybody - please hit the Control button to change this
[13:13] Dixit Writer: ciao giulio
[13:13] IntLibber Brautigan: yes, but people are voting for anybody but themselves
[13:14] Xantha Oe: habemus papam is the announcement upon the election of a new pope
[13:14] Khannea Suntzu: Papessa?
[13:14] Terence McKenna: Morpheus, Khannea, can we continue by email? I’m .
[13:14] You: second point:
[13:14] Khannea Suntzu: Yep
[13:14] You: next event
[13:14] Morpheus Maximus: okay
[13:14] You: Is eliezer in sl?
[13:15] Khannea Suntzu: Havent met him
[13:15] Khannea Suntzu: Who is ben Goertzels avi?
[13:15] You: david you still here?
[13:15] You: ben is in sl but not here
[13:15] Khannea Suntzu: Ok
[13:15] Terence McKenna: Any particular wishes of those present to future WTA-SL activities, while y’all here?
[13:16] Xantha Oe: Ben Goertzel in SL is....
[13:16] Xantha Oe: Zarathustrapocalypse Zeta
[13:16] You: yudkowsky - goertzel - other seminar on religion - maxmore (natasha told me today he will be in sl)
[13:16] Khannea Suntzu: Ok
[13:17] You: OK - there is a next event now
[13:17] You: does everyone know?
[13:17] Terence McKenna: Is event here, or can be moved here?
[13:17] Dixit Writer: nu
[13:17] MarieMarie Timeless: where
[13:17] You: fetching URL
[13:17] Cryonica Artizar: would need lm to next event
[13:17] You: http://sophrosyne-sl.livejournal.com/30850.html
[13:18] OneUp Thiebaud is Online
[13:18] You: it is a parallel quasi-transhumanist group
[13:18] You: I promised to go
[13:18] Monica Palen is Online
[13:18] X-Flight, flight assist: All Go
[13:18] You: who wants to come
[13:18] Khannea Suntzu: Affirmative
[13:18] Synthalor Mandelbrot is Online
[13:18] Josiane Llewellyn: ok
[13:18] Terence McKenna: OneUp Thiebaud is online.
[13:18] MarieMarie Timeless: ok but where exactly????
[13:18] Cryonica Artizar: ok
[13:18] Dixit Writer: i could
[13:18] Morpheus Maximus: ok
[13:18] Dixit Writer: butwhat time?
[13:19] You: let me ask for exact coordinates
[13:19] MarieMarie Timeless: It is from the WTA also?
[13:19] You: not yet but I hope they will join
[13:19] MarieMarie Timeless: Im new at this and I admit, kind of lost!!!!!
[13:19] Synthalor Mandelbrot is Offline
[13:19] xyryx Simca: Pandoria 209, 52, 22
[13:20] Dancoyote Antonelli: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Pandoria/45/224/23/
[13:20] You: OK did everyone get the coords?
[13:20] Dancoyote Antonelli: The Diversionarium
[13:20] Terence McKenna: Let’s consider WTA-SL meeting concluded, and teleport there.
[13:20] MarieMarie Timeless: can someone help me teleport there?
[13:21] MarieMarie Timeless: Pronto, hello, hola!!!
[13:21] You: SEE YOU THERE IN ONE MIN
[13:21] ThoughtwareTV Timeless: im here MArie dont worry
[13:21] Synthalor Mandelbrot is Online
[13:21] MarieMarie Timeless: thanks for rescuyng me
[13:21] MarieMarie Timeless: Hey!
[13:21] ThoughtwareTV Timeless: /wave
[13:21] IntLibber Brautigan: you can tp there simply by hitting the history button by the chat line
[13:22] Peer Infinity: um, did I just miss the whole meeting? I spent the past 2 hours in the WTA skybox waiting for the meeting to start.
[13:22] IntLibber Brautigan: then click on the hotlink the slurl creates
[13:22] You: pandoria 31 103 23
[13:22] IntLibber Brautigan: that will bring up the location in your map
[13:22] IntLibber Brautigan: then you hit the teleport button
[13:22] PetGirl Bergman is Online
[13:22] Sophrosyne Stenvaag gave you The Diversionarium in Pandoria (31, 103, 23).
[13:24] Dancoyote Antonelli is Offline
[13:24] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: ok, let’s get back on track. I have an email off to the owners.
[13:24] Khannea Suntzu: cluck cluck
[13:24] Extropia DaSilva: Hello X.
[13:24] Cryonica Artizar: hi Xyryx
[13:24] You: hi everyone
[13:24] Cryonica Artizar: thx 4 tp
[13:24] Cryonica Artizar: hi Giulio
[13:24] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Everyone, welcome to the Diversionarium
[13:24] Extropia DaSilva: Giulio!
[13:25] Carl Drechsler: Hmmm, not much order in this discussion…
[13:25] Xantha Oe looks around
[13:25] Dixit Writer: lag
[13:25] Ali Hermes: Order is over rated.
[13:25] ThoughtwareTV Timeless: so whats the topic
[13:25] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: I’m waiting for the new people to finish rezzing.
[13:25] Monica Palen: Hi Cyronica
[13:25] Lex Berchot: Chaos is the new order ;)
[13:26] Monica Palen: thanks Giulio!
[13:26] Carl Drechsler: hahaha, well, I cannot imagine SL if the UDP packages wouldn’t come in order to my PC
[13:26] Carl Drechsler: LOL
[13:26] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Let’s pick back up with a question - how many of you consider yourselves to be a different self, and not the same person as is in the atomic world?
[13:26] ThoughtwareTV Timeless is Online
[13:26] dandellion Kimban: me
[13:26] Brielle Coronet: <---same
[13:26] Xantha Oe: yes
[13:26] Josiane Llewellyn: yes
[13:26] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: me too -
[13:26] Argent Bury: likewise
[13:26] featherfoot Fadoodle: i always thought of myself as more myself here
[13:26] Lex Berchot: me.
[13:26] Terence McKenna: There's not much of myself here.
[13:27] Carl Drechsler: Agree with featherfoot…
[13:27] dandellion Kimban: but… what fdo you meen when you say you are separate?
[13:27] featherfoot Fadoodle: there are so many contraints and customs barring us, here we can be who we actually are
[13:27] Dixit Writer: i am here in avatr
[13:27] Esteban Moody: Well, since I don't believe in the atomic world, I would agee.
[13:27] Dixit Writer: just this
[13:27] You: I prefer to divide identity differently than RL/SL
[13:27] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: featherfoot, I completely agree -
[13:27] Lien Yao: Do you see human as a bunch of biological cells… or a being with soul?
[13:27] Tusitala Enoch: not sure about the answer
[13:27] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: ah, great responses!
[13:27] Carl Drechsler: Just recognize that here you and onfold that part of yourselves that you don't dare to expose in RL
[13:27] Brielle Coronet: then you are presenting a false self in world?
[13:27] Terence McKenna: SL is a crutch. It's a damaged sensorium at best.
[13:27] Argent Bury: Define false, Brielle?
[13:27] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Giulio, how do you make the divide?
[13:28] You: agree with eugen (terence)
[13:28] featherfoot Fadoodle: everyone presents differnt selves in RL
[13:28] Brielle Coronet: not the whole persona
[13:28] Carl Drechsler: This is more or less the same as traditional chats… with extra visual support
[13:28] Extropia DaSilva: Technological trends imply a more subtle blend of realities than I strict RL/VR divide. In that sense, I agree with Giulio.
[13:28] Dancoyote Antonelli is Online
[13:28] You: sl is not yet sensorially realistic enough
[13:28] 01 Hifeng: well… i actually look and act the same in RL ;]
[13:28] featherfoot Fadoodle: whoever you have to be and not necessarily who you are
[13:28] Carl Drechsler: Agree again with Featherfoot…
[13:28] 01 Hifeng: i even wear the same make-up
[13:28] 01 Hifeng: talk in the same way
[13:28] Esteban Moody: Terence, I think that our SL life has been muted or downgraded from it's full reality.
[13:28] Monica Palen: not enough prim density posibble
[13:28] Esteban Moody: *its
[13:28] featherfoot Fadoodle: i can be who i am here, even if that changes from day to day (which it does)
[13:29] Khannea Suntzu: It will probably be easier to staple on small neurological changes than effectively much around with the body itself.
[13:29] Carl Drechsler: The question is how much are you able to accept that personality is a question of context, disposition and confidence
[13:29] Brielle Coronet: <-- I'd rather be a whole entity in both RL & SL
[13:29] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Brielle - can you say more as to why you see "different" as "false?"
[13:29] Terence McKenna: As compared to the potential of real artificial reality, this is nothing. It would be a lot more useful for locked-in folks.
[13:29] Esteban Moody: In my opinion…
[13:29] Extropia DaSilva: However, carrying out radical redesigns of a software being is not as problematic as doing likewise with an organic brain. I fear Giulio's biology-software approach is too slow.
[13:29] Khannea Suntzu: Internet connectivity can not provide a decent virtual reality
[13:29] You: lets give SL 15-20 yrs time to become a real metaverse
[13:29] Brielle Coronet: if you only presenting one facet of yourself then you are not sharing your entire entity. it would be stunted
[13:30] You: then i want to upload to VR and live here
[13:30] featherfoot Fadoodle: Giulio i hope it gets there before that!
[13:30] Brielle Coronet: all that is missing here is sensory interaction
[13:30] Terence McKenna: Imagine anyone here in front of the screen drops down dead. Suddenly, not much of a meeting, huh?
[13:30] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Brielle - are you the same person in every context?
[13:30] IntLibber Brautigan: Lag is atrocious
[13:30] Khannea Suntzu giggles at Giulio
[13:30] Monica Palen: I come too!
[13:30] featherfoot Fadoodle: people are faceted beings tho
[13:30] Esteban Moody: there's too much about "real life" that doesn't make sense—too many cracks in the illusion.
[13:30] Lex Berchot agrees with featherfoot.
[13:30] Extropia DaSilva: What reason is there to suppose uploading is anything other than centuries away?
[13:30] Khannea Suntzu: I am exploiting bugs in FL all the time
[13:30] Carl Drechsler: You are the same person indeed, what changes is the facet you're unfolding in front of it
[13:30] featherfoot Fadoodle: you can only show a limited amount of surface at a time
[13:30] Terence McKenna: If this is public land, then killer lag is no wonder.
[13:31] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Terence, this is not "public land," -
[13:31] Terence McKenna: Extropia, nobody can forecast in centuries anymore.
[13:31] IntLibber Brautigan: the lag is from too many avs in one place
[13:31] dandellion Kimban: nobody can forecast tw2o decades…
[13:31] IntLibber Brautigan: too many avs wearing too many scripted attachments, high prim hair, and flexi clothing and hair
[13:31] Khannea Suntzu: Can we move to a nice event space? Like Pulveria?
[13:31] dandellion Kimban: 15 yrs ago we had no internet
[13:31] Dixit Writer: i think that the one thing we need in SL is the ubiquity
[13:31] Carl Drechsler: Yeah, I prefer to explore the metaphors than the forecasts
[13:32] ThoughtwareTV Timeless: no lag here ^_^
[13:32] featherfoot Fadoodle: just 2 years ago SL wasnt as good as this
[13:32] IntLibber Brautigan: the internet dates back to the late 1970s
[13:32] Natsumi Yue: None here, either.
[13:32] Xantha Oe: my avie seems like a family member to me
[13:32] Brielle Coronet: public internet usage is only 10 yrs old
[13:32] featherfoot Fadoodle: in antoher couple years it will be exponetially better
[13:32] Cryonica Artizar: no i experience no lag
[13:32] Carl Drechsler: And I believe the Matrix metaphor was exactly the contrary what someone here tried to expose
[13:32] Extropia DaSilva: You do not find it a teensy bit implausible that we go from today's laggy Sl and inability to even model a protein in simulation, to full immersion VR and sustained modelling of consciousness within a few decades? That is quite optimistic.
[13:32] dandellion Kimban: yes int… but it was not what it is now.... you'll agree that 10 yrs ago we haven't expected thisw
[13:32] featherfoot Fadoodle: its like the internet isnt created, it just unfolds
[13:32] IntLibber Brautigan: I had an internet email account in 1981 as a junior high school student
[13:32] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Carl - yes - could you elaborate on that?
[13:32] Khannea Suntzu: A decent graphics card removed most of my lag
[13:32] Esteban Moody: In my mind, we're not forcasting. We exist far in the future, and our mission must be to uncover the past that has been hidden/taken from us.
[13:32] Xantha Oe: i bet it won't be SL but another metaverse platform (hopefully open) in 5 yrs
[13:32] IntLibber Brautigan: vernor vinge and other visionaries did
[13:33] IntLibber Brautigan: and Neal Stephenson wrote Snow Crash in the early 1990's
[13:33] Brielle Coronet: how libber? AOL was one of the first vendors to provide public access to internet in mid90's
[13:33] Terence McKenna: Extropia, centuries of wall clock time can be a lot.
[13:33] Khannea Suntzu: If Rainbow's End becomes 50% true I am happy
[13:33] Lis Moo is Offline
[13:33] Dixit Writer: a large net of SL-Like :)
[13:33] IntLibber Brautigan: I had my email through dartmouth college
[13:33] Dixit Writer: around the world
[13:33] Alonzo Karas: opencroquet.org
[13:33] IntLibber Brautigan: AOL didn't invent the internet any more than Al Gore did
[13:33] Khannea Suntzu: Correction "rainbows end"
[13:33] Alonzo Karas: er croquetconsortium.org
[13:33] Brielle Coronet: dind't say invent, said provided public access thru subscription
[13:33] Xantha Oe: opposite of the Matrix would be us controlling code beings (e.g.; avatars)
[13:33] Dixit Writer: yes
[13:33] Khannea Suntzu: Merging with code beings
[13:34] Monica Palen is Offline
[13:34] You: yes - merging
[13:34] Dixit Writer: we need control
[13:34] You: or even better - becoming
[13:34] Carl Drechsler: There are no code beings, as mucho they would be code representations of beings
[13:34] Dixit Writer: of information first of all
[13:34] Khannea Suntzu: Then we need to get rid of controllers, such as Neocons
[13:34] Brielle Coronet: libber was that intranet network ?
[13:34] IntLibber Brautigan: it was arpanet
[13:34] Extropia DaSilva: But you are already a software being, Giulio:)
[13:34] You: not really
[13:34] You: sw beings dont age
[13:34] Extropia DaSilva: You are here in Sl with me.
[13:34] Natsumi Yue: LOL @ Giulio.
[13:34] Dixit Writer: dont U exist in RL Giulio? :)
[13:34] Xantha Oe is not just a code being
[13:34] You: sure I do
[13:34] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: I dn't -
[13:35] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: *don't
[13:35] Brielle Coronet: I am more than a pixel lol
[13:35] ThoughtwareTV Timeless: hehe.
[13:35] IntLibber Brautigan: I am a being of code, I earn my living in SL now, I lead a company thats one of the largest capitalized companies in SL
[13:35] Carl Drechsler: Neocons will have the things much easier if you give them the power of reduce yourselves to a code representation of a being
[13:35] Cryonica Artizar: Giulio, if u r uploaded will u still also have a self in the "RL"?
[13:35] Extropia DaSilva: Giulio exists in RL as a pattern of information encoded in the brain of a specific meatbody, just as I do.
[13:35] IntLibber Brautigan: and I started it only a year ago with 200 US in adsense money and a deep understanding of exponential economics
[13:35] Argent Bury: (brb)
[13:35] Esteban Moody: I hear crickets.
[13:35] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: You all are code representations of beings - that's all DNA is…
[13:35] Lis Moo is Online
[13:35] Brielle Coronet: conversely, when we log off do our avis still exist?
[13:35] Khannea Suntzu pushes Giulio's software belly
[13:35] Terence McKenna: IntLibber: if your physical body dies, the SL avatar goes catatonic, and is logged off in a few minutes.
[13:36] Extropia DaSilva: Yes. They exist in the minds of people we meet in SL.
[13:36] IntLibber Brautigan: true Gene
[13:36] IntLibber Brautigan: but if I die, my corporation lives on
[13:36] Carl Drechsler: Not at all, Sophrosyne, DNA just have the potential genotype…
[13:36] featherfoot Fadoodle: Brielle, when we sleep do our RL bodies still exist?
[13:36] peter419 Ackland: exponential economics ?
[13:36] Carl Drechsler: Fenotype and personality are social constructions…
[13:36] Terence McKenna: Yes, but that's the corporation being, and it's mostly people, not bits.
[13:36] IntLibber Brautigan: a corporation is as much an artifical person as an avatar
[13:36] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: yesyes, Intlibber -the law has recognized "artificial persons" for centuries- *we* are nothing new -
[13:36] Natsumi Yue: Brielle, yes, they do.
[13:36] peter419 Ackland: does anyone no
[13:36] Brielle Coronet: no i mean do our avis go on with their business & life? lol
[13:36] Carl Drechsler: DNA just codes proteines…
[13:36] Xantha Oe: the individual is a social construction
[13:36] Extropia DaSilva: No. They ARE the genotype. The potential thing they represent is the PHENOtype.
[13:36] Khannea Suntzu: Let's just survive the coming oil crash before we start celebrating the coming of father nick.
[13:37] Carl Drechsler: Agree with Xantha
[13:37] Natsumi Yue nods @ SOph. That's a good point.
[13:37] Brielle Coronet: thats a rhetorical question
[13:37] Carl Drechsler: DNA just carries the biological potential
[13:37] Khannea Suntzu: Transition to other energy types will hurt
[13:37] Khannea Suntzu: Maybe we cant even afford to develop a VR
[13:37] Extropia DaSilva: No it will not.
[13:37] Esteban Moody: I once found a bluejay feather.
[13:37] Khannea Suntzu: The average user in SL uses the same energy as the average brazilian
[13:37] Esteban Moody: but drinks a lot less
[13:38] featherfoot Fadoodle: hehe
[13:38] Lex Berchot: lol
[13:38] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Yes, we - all of us - do need new cheap energy sources.
[13:38] Natsumi Yue: LOL
[13:38] Khannea Suntzu swallows a gulp of coke, nods and chokes on her flat coke.
[13:38] Extropia DaSilva: So long as the current methadology continues to work, alternatives have no chance. But as soon as current methods falter, radical alternatives leap ahead.
[13:38] Argent Bury: back
[13:38] Carl Drechsler: Hey, what happened with the discussion about DNA and coded beings, LOL
[13:38] Simanto Fitzcarraldo is Online
[13:38] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Here's a question - is it important to have the same level of control over our environment in the atomic world as in the digital, or is it enough to be as gods here?
[13:38] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Do we need nanotech, or is code enough?
[13:38] Khannea Suntzu: I shall fraggin hope so Trophy, and hope not half a billion thirdworlders die to fuel that quantum leap
[13:39] Terence McKenna: If you're all bits, and somebody pulls the plug, you're dead.
[13:39] Khannea Suntzu: Not on flash terence
[13:39] Carl Drechsler: Hmmm, US and British govmnts have almost of the control of the net… they can unplug the servers
[13:39] Xantha Oe: 'level of control' is somewhat a perception, in either world
[13:39] Esteban Moody: I don't think avatars are code. I think we've been tricked into thinking we're code.
[13:39] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Same if you're atoms, Terrence - backups in both media would be a good idea…
[13:39] Terence McKenna: Pulling the plug = destroying you at the physical layer.
[13:39] You: soph: we need nanotech to implement that kind of code (veeeeery complex)
[13:39] IntLibber Brautigan: if you are bits, you can be backed up into storage
[13:39] featherfoot Fadoodle agrees with xantha
[13:39] IntLibber Brautigan: if youa re wetware, you cannot
[13:39] IntLibber Brautigan: other than cryonics
[13:39] Carl Drechsler: You still can have a plentiful life even if you are offline
[13:40] You: thatswhy I want to become bits intlibber
[13:40] You: not that I dont enjoy wetware
[13:40] Carl Drechsler: Furthermore, the best things of life are right out here
[13:40] IntLibber Brautigan: thats why I'm building my riches in SL
[13:40] You: ynow what I mean
[13:40] Esteban Moody: the belief in RL is the default religion of SL.
[13:40] Terence McKenna: In solid state culture very little happens in physical reality.
[13:40] Extropia DaSilva: Nanotech plus computation gives us an easy way around the population problem. Convert the planets into a matrioska brain and you can upload enough mind children to put 10 billion on every planet of every star in a thousand galaxies.
[13:40] You: but I hope as bits I can simulate wetware
[13:40] Brielle Coronet: what esteban?
[13:40] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Giulio, yes-
[13:40] IntLibber Brautigan: at some point I'll be in a position in the metaverse to be one of the leaders in being uploaded
[13:41] Carl Drechsler: LOL, Extropia, you're going too fast…
[13:41] Esteban Moody: the belief in RL is the default religion of SL.
[13:41] featherfoot Fadoodle: but even if we exist here and some server is pulled, arent we still here somewhere?
[13:41] Carl Drechsler: Just realize how upsetting is the lag here
[13:41] Dixit Writer: :D Chearles Stroke
[13:41] Khannea Suntzu: Trophy is so optimistic sometimes
[13:41] featherfoot Fadoodle: you cant destroy all the pulses everywhere
[13:41] Extropia DaSilva: Computation is all about forming complex patterns of the building blocks of info. Nanotech is all about forming complex patterns of the building blocks of matter. They are natural bedfellows.
[13:41] Terence McKenna: If you thought the lag is upsetting, I find the confusion of concepts much more so.
[13:41] IntLibber Brautigan: FYI Newbies for lag control: a) reduce draw distance to 64 meters
[13:41] Doug Mandelbrot is Online
[13:42] IntLibber Brautigan: b) go to exit>preferences> advanced graphics and reduce particles to 0
[13:42] Carl Drechsler: All what you’re talking about is in the world of hypothesis…
[13:42] Dixit Writer: itz ok
[13:42] Esteban Moody: I know i’m a voice in the wilderness, but i had a dream of lilacs. i could smell them
[13:42] Khannea Suntzu: Terence read accelerando. Extropia is fused with the book.
[13:42] IntLibber Brautigan: edit preferences, sorry
[13:42] Carl Drechsler: Having this like the startpoint, you cannot extrapolate the things so far…
[13:42] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: IntLibber, thanks for that advice!
[13:42] Dixit Writer: i m reading it
[13:42] Terence McKenna: I could write accelerando. I don’t need to read squat.
[13:42] IntLibber Brautigan: ah the old Gene is coming out
[13:42] Extropia DaSilva: Actually, Khannea, I have all the scientific and philosophical papers that Stross used as the ‘science’ in his science fiction.
[13:43] Khannea Suntzu: I am sure you do
[13:43] Dixit Writer: :))
[13:43] Carl Drechsler: We can easily note what are our initial conditions… no reason to justify the confusion between spaces…
[13:43] Esteban Moody: May I ask a question to everyone?
[13:43] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Extropia - could you get a reading list for us?
[13:43] dandellion Kimban: sure,m este
[13:43] You: sure esteban
[13:43] Khannea Suntzu: Sure shoot
[13:43] Lex Berchot: shoot Este :)
[13:43] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Esteban, yes!
[13:43] featherfoot Fadoodle: yes
[13:43] Dixit Writer: gh
[13:43] Esteban Moody: how would describe the smell of a rose to someone who had never smelled one?
[13:43] Dixit Writer: we ar waiting
[13:44] Brielle Coronet: or color
[13:44] isisT Czervik is Online
[13:44] Khannea Suntzu: I wouldnt bother
[13:44] dandellion Kimban: no way
[13:44] Extropia DaSilva: Oh is this the hard problem? Qualia?
[13:44] Carl Drechsler: Easily, through analogies…
[13:44] Alonzo Karas: Computation is formally defined as the act of applyiing the rules of a formal system.
[13:44] Dixit Writer: u cant, but u can express the emotions
[13:44] Esteban Moody: *chirp chirp*
[13:44] Carl Drechsler: Yeah, Dixit, that’s the point
[13:44] Khannea Suntzu: I bear witness of the rose, thats all I can do.
[13:44] IntLibber Brautigan: I’m skeptical of qualia
[13:44] You: by simulating smthng perceptually similar, even if not identical
[13:44] Ali Hermes: Hardly true, that’s the romantic’s viewpoint.
[13:44] Dixit Writer: kepp some exemp similar
[13:44] Esteban Moody: anybody?
[13:45] featherfoot Fadoodle agrees with giulio
[13:45] Doug Mandelbrot is Offline
[13:45] Extropia DaSilva: Giulio gave the best method.
[13:45] Ali Hermes: As was said, you can draw comparasions and analogies to things that are rose-like and in their experience.
[13:45] Esteban Moody: So no one can?
[13:45] Carl Drechsler: Agree with Giulio
[13:45] featherfoot Fadoodle: we have more than a couple perceptions
[13:45] Carl Drechsler: There are a lot of workarounds…
[13:45] ThoughtwareTV Timeless: I agree with Giulio too
[13:45] Ali Hermes: Or more directly, skip the explanations and get them a rose to experience themselves.
[13:45] You: listen let me rephrase - how you describe stink of shit - same thing but without confusing romantic appeal
[13:45] dandellion Kimban: but… if you try to explein red to a blind pewrson, you don’t have anything similar
[13:45] Carl Drechsler: Fortunately, rhere are several tools, like synthesis or analogy
[13:45] Argent Bury nods
[13:46] IntLibber Brautigan: if you dont’ know what RL chicken tastes like, how do you know what its supposed to taste like?
[13:46] Synthalor Mandelbrot is Offline
[13:46] Hank Hoodoo is Online
[13:46] Khannea Suntzu: I’d show them the US presidency as a fine example.
[13:46] Esteban Moody: So, may i draw a conclusion from the fact than no one can do it?
[13:46] MarieMarie Timeless: true
[13:46] Brielle Coronet: uh oh
[13:46] Carl Drechsler: Estaban, read to the people
[13:46] Extropia DaSilva: That is easy. EVERYTHING tastes of chicken;)
[13:46] Moll Fitzroy: why yry it is not in their world
[13:46] featherfoot Fadoodle: no one *knows* how to do it now
[13:46] ThoughtwareTV Timeless: lol
[13:46] Ali Hermes: If you ignore the different ways that people have described to do so Esteban, yes.
[13:46] featherfoot Fadoodle: not that it cant be done
[13:46] Carl Drechsler: You can sinthetize an approximation to the flower’s smell
[13:46] IntLibber Brautigan: see, I think that the taste of chicken is proof RL is a simulation
[13:47] Carl Drechsler: Or you can explain it through analogy… pretty simple
[13:47] Carl Drechsler: hahaha, simulation of what?
[13:47] Extropia DaSilva: Roses get their smell from a specific sequence of chemicals. We have the techhnology now that can determine what those chemicals are and synthesise them. It is no big deal.
[13:47] Carl Drechsler: LOL
[13:47] You: there is just no way to describe individual perception short of full brain map
[13:47] Esteban Moody: ok, so no one here can do it.
[13:47] Extropia DaSilva: I just did.
[13:47] Esteban Moody: that’s not a surprise, right?
[13:47] You: we use language to establish correlations between diff perceptions of diff ppl
[13:47] IntLibber Brautigan: who knows, but whoever programmed real life has to have been an AI, cause they don’t know what everything that tastes like chicken should taste like
[13:47] Esteban Moody: you claimed you could, but you didn’t.
[13:48] Carl Drechsler: I cannot, buy my cousing, a chemical engineer, really can!!!!
[13:48] Terence McKenna: Does anyone have a fresh slurl for this particular location? People can’t find us.
[13:48] MarieMarie Timeless: What is like to be a bat?
[13:48] You: esteban whats your point?
[13:48] Ali Hermes: You didn’t ask people to do it.
[13:48] Lex Berchot: Carl, no he can extract and duplicate .. thats not the same as describing ;)
[13:48] Ali Hermes: You asked how we would. And we provided many methods to do it.
[13:48] You: pandiria 21 81 21
[13:48] ThoughtwareTV Timeless: But in the end is the smell/chemicals not eventually just interpreted by your brain?
[13:48] Esteban Moody: oh, ok, let’s here some tries, then!
[13:48] Khannea Suntzu: Remarkable. When I studied philosophy in 1990 these were bizarre, fringe ideas and after the Matrix they are as common as pretzels.
[13:48] Esteban Moody: *hear
[13:48] Carl Drechsler: And what’s the matter about that, Timeless?
[13:49] Hank Hoodoo is Offline
[13:49] jesz Murakami: point is we cant come out of theis meeting smelling like roses
[13:49] MarieMarie Timeless: Matrix, hummm
[13:49] You: perception is everything, chemicals dont matter
[13:49] Carl Drechsler: Much of what we are is in our brains
[13:49] Carl Drechsler: What’s the problem?
[13:49] You: perhaps perception CREATES chemicals
[13:49] IntLibber Brautigan: Khannea, we are the bizzar fringe, and we have become the mainstream, its a sign of progress
[13:49] ThoughtwareTV Timeless: if you can simulate the same result on another entity then you can basically just let them feel the same experience.
[13:49] Khannea Suntzu: We made much progress in 17 years
[13:49] Extropia DaSilva: DId. Find out what chemicals are involved in the scent of roses. Synthesise chemicals. Tell person who has never smelled a rose to sniff your vial of chemicals and say ‘a rose smells just like that’. Job done.
[13:49] Carl Drechsler: Perception mechanisms are not a mistery anymore!
[13:49] ThoughtwareTV Timeless: Couldn’t different organisms that have followed different evolutionary path not experience the chemicals of a rose entirely different?
[13:49] MarieMarie Timeless: I agree with Thoughtware on that
[13:49] Sophrosyne Stenvaag nods at Extropia. “Sounds like a logical solution....”
[13:50] Esteban Moody: So, no one here can tell me what a rose sounds like. Ok.
[13:50] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Hm, yes -
[13:50] Natsumi Yue: The brain is an emergent system. Each person’s brain adapts to it’s own evironment. But since we can’t quentify perception, I think ti’s arguable that it doesn’t really matter.
[13:50] Khannea Suntzu: If I were to stimulate the brains pleasure centre when making someone smell shit, for a week or so, would shit still smell as bad after a week?
[13:50] IntLibber Brautigan: Thought, whatever their means of sensing smell, the fact is a rose smells like a rose in the perspective of the observer
[13:50] Carl Drechsler: Well, then you have to syntethize the chemical product that matches the particular perceptual mechanism
[13:50] ThoughtwareTV Timeless: So if we wanted an AI for example to experience our experience of a rose’s smell we’d have to be able to simulate the same experience for it, no?
[13:50] Carl Drechsler: The same
[13:50] Terence McKenna: Folks, can someone generate a slurl for this place here?
[13:50] jesz Murakami: some of us have rose above your question este!
[13:51] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: sure, Terence. Stand by/.
[13:51] Natsumi Yue: Khannea, yes.
[13:51] IntLibber Brautigan: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Pandoria/22/82/21
[13:51] featherfoot Fadoodle: plus, different roses smell completely differently
[13:51] Carl Drechsler: Well, just define the rose you wanna imitate
[13:51] You: khannea - good point - then shit would smell good
[13:51] Extropia DaSilva: A rose by any other name would smell as sweet…
[13:51] MarieMarie Timeless: LOL
[13:51] Esteban Moody: So, the next question is “why not?”—or…
[13:52] Carl Drechsler: There are a lot of ways to determine it… taxonomic classification, for example
[13:52] Natsumi Yue: LOL
[13:52] Brielle Coronet: good one dasilver!
[13:52] featherfoot Fadoodle: “a rose by any other name would still have aphids”
[13:52] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Brief interruption for a commercial: if you’d like to know of further events, including out next salon on Sex & Technology, please join the “Digital People” and/or “Diversionarians” groups!
[13:52] Extropia DaSilva: arrows by any other name would smell as wheat…
[13:52] IntLibber Brautigan: A better question is whether you can sell virtual manure as fertilizer or not
[13:52] Carl Drechsler: hahaha, please, don’t propose to reduce human sexuality to SL simulations!!!
[13:52] Esteban Moody: “Is it really believeable that ‘human beings’ couldn’t describe a smell?’”
[13:52] Carl Drechsler: That would be a sin against humanity!!! LOL
[13:52] dandellion Kimban: lol
[13:53] MarieMarie Timeless: I think we can describe smell
[13:53] Carl Drechsler: I can describe you that smell, again
[13:53] Esteban Moody: No one has.
[13:53] Natsumi Yue: HUmans have alimited capacity to describe color, is it a wonder that we can’t describe smell?
[13:53] MarieMarie Timeless: what!
[13:53] Natsumi Yue: Think about the funny names we give to colors.
[13:53] Carl Drechsler: Through analogies with experiences of the subject or by direct synthesis
[13:53] IntLibber Brautigan: I’m disappointed we have no voice in a discussion about progress
[13:53] Natsumi Yue: fuscia.
[13:53] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: But we’ve identified so many ways to *categorize* colors -
[13:53] Natsumi Yue: Pink.
[13:53] Extropia DaSilva: Well, human beings tend to describe something via association to something else. ‘An anvil sounds like a bell’, ‘A rose smells like such and such perfume’ ‘Strawberries are red’.
[13:53] dandellion Kimban: nets, humans are relying more on sight than on the smell
[13:53] jesz Murakami: lol carl the reduction of human sexuality is why we have SL simulations of
[13:53] Esteban Moody: colors are easy
[13:53] IntLibber Brautigan: who is the estate manager around here?
[13:53] Natsumi Yue: Does that tell you anything about it?
[13:54] jesz Murakami: the faking of the faking!!
[13:54] Esteban Moody: sounds are easy
[13:54] MarieMarie Timeless: The redness of red
[13:54] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: which shows that we do have fine discrimination and a common frame of reference, unlike for smell -
[13:54] Esteban Moody: shapes are easy
[13:54] Carl Drechsler: Fortunately not me, jesZ, LOL
[13:54] Carl Drechsler: “I prefer the orthodox way to make children”, LOL
[13:54] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: IntLibber, you can get that from about land - do you have a question?
[13:54] Asturkon Jua is Offline
[13:54] Gruppognosys Coage is Online
[13:55] Carl Drechsler: Smells are not different to colors, that is: percep
Posted by G.P. on 10/21 at 07:46 AM